Why SAVE?

Serial Approval Vote Election

Why do we need SAVE (or something like it)?

Before we go too much further, we'd like to present a thought experiment illustrating what we think of as a true democracy. The Cell Tower is a thought experiment describing a way a small community might have made a collective choice in a democratic way with everyone having significant input into the decision.

We will assume you are at least familiar with the Cell Tower thought experiment for the rest of this page. If you have not read the full story, please do so now, or at least skim the section titled The Cell Tower Model: A Simple Thought Experiment.

Walking through the Cell Tower Thought Experiment ,,fold,,

The cell tower thought experiment is an idealized example of how a small community could a collective choice when individual voter preferences need to be balanced and the community needs to find a consensus outcome.

By walking through this simple example we hope to show how direct democracy can work in small communities. We also point out the challenges of scaling this process up to larger groups, and how historic and current attempts to scale up direct democracy to larger groups have fallen short of the ideal.

The choice: what is the collective decision to be made? ,,fold,,

The decision is the location of a cell phone service tower for the community. The choice of location has been simplified to just picking a coordinate point in the plane that will be accepted by the community. Each community member has an individual ideal location, and all of these locations are different. Moreover, many members of the community value their privacy and may not want to reveal their ideal tower location if they can get decent service without doing so.

The desired solution is a tower location that minimizes the average distance between the tower and the community members' individual ideal locations.

The preliminaries: how to get started? ,,fold,,

The idea of using an ad-hoc committee is that it might somehow be able to propose either a single decent location, or a set of reasonable locations from which to choose. The problem here is the committee does not know what anyone outside the committee wants.

There is no reason to think a proposal from any subset of the community would be ideal for the community as a whole. It could happen, but there are no guarantees.

The committee proposed two locations, from Alice and Bob, and would have been happy with either one. The rest of the community…not so much.

The town meeting: single elimination tournament ,,fold,,

The clerk initially expected to preside over a vote between proposed locations A and B using simple majority decision. Had that occurred, the community would have been stuck with location B, which would have resulted in part of the community having poor or no service at all.

Carol's proposal of location C changed that plan from a majority decision to a single elimination tournament. Using a single elimination tournament would have changed the result from the earlier B, to location C, and a slightly different part of the community having poor or no service.

Alice's objection to the single elimination tournament (or its result) and the clerk's and community's accommodation with another vote between A and C resulted in the exposure of a Condorcet cycle.

The small size of the community and the fact that the entire community was at the town meeting made it easy to accommodate the desire for multiple votes, leading to the exposure of the Condorcet cycle.

Dealing with a Condorcet cycle ,,fold,,

A Condorcet cycle is not an aberration but rather a condition that arises naturally with some sets of alternatives even when the underlying collective preferences are fixed, as they are in this example.

There are two main reasons why people who have not studied voting theory would not have heard of Condorcet cycles. One is a tendency to reduce decisions to just two alternatives. The other is the voting systems being used might not be able to expose the cycles.

When there is only a choice between two outcomes, it is not possible to have a Condorcet cycle simply because a cycle needs to have at least three members. Quite often we are presented with binary choices: A or B, yes or no, purchase or not purchase, take it or leave it. And in many of those cases there are really many more options possible, and the restriction of the responses to one of two choices is artificial and can prevent even the consideration of a possible, better outcome.

When the voting system is unable to detect Condorcet cycles, the problem is more insidious. Any voting system that cannot detect or expose Condorcet cycles is subject to manipulation or strategic voting. Manipulation or strategy usually needs information about what would occur without manipulation or with only honest votes, and that type of information may be hard to get. Yet without accurate information, attempts at manipulation or strategic voting may result in an outcome that is neither the "natural" outcome (with neither manipulation nor strategic voting) nor the "desired" outcome (the goal of the manipulator or the voter applying strategy), but instead something else entirely. Moreover, the fact that the voting system results in a single winner instead of exposing the cycle means the winning result has a level of legitimacy (due to "winning") that is artificial and undeserved.

The voting methods that do detect Condorcet cycles, tend to differ in how they resolve the cycles. Nicolas de Condorcet, for whom the cycles are named, proposed a method producing one of two outcomes to any election. Either the method would find the single alternative that would win a majority decision against any other alternative (now called a Condorcet winner), or it would expose a cycle. Condorcet's suggestion when a cycle was found using his method was to decide the matter using some other method. In fact, there is now a whole family of voting systems (Condorcet methods) that return a Condorcet winner if there is one, and only differ in what they do when there is a cycle.

What the community did when faced with the Condorcet cycle is something entirely different, which was only possible because all the voters were still in one room. That novel approach to a known cycle was to allow Dave to propose D as a new location, and then see how well D performed against the three cycle members.

So, a new method to deal with a Condorcet cycle is to add to the choice set.

Dealing with a Condorcet Winner, part I ,,fold,,

As mentioned earlier, there is a whole family of voting systems whose goal is to find and select a Condorcet winner if there is one, and to somehow make a choice when there is no clear Condorcet winner. None of those methods could have considered D because they are all essentially single round voting methods. They can only choose a winner from the initial set of proposals, and have no mechanism whatsoever to consider adding a proposal because they have no opportunity to do so.

A small town meeting does have that opportunity, which resulted in location D: a Condorcet winner in the set {A, B, C, D}. Yet that opportunity did not disappear when Dave made his proposal. It has been known since Condorcet's time that every finite set of proposals has either a Condorcet winner or a top cycle. (A top cycle is a Condorcet cycle with the added property that every proposal not part of the top cycle is defeated by at least one member of the top cycle. Technically, a Condorcet winner is a top cycle with a single member.)

Here is where Eve enters the discussion. While Dave's proposal is a three-way compromise over the first three proposals, Eve's proposal looks at the geometry and how the voter ideals have to be distributed in order to generate the ABC cycle. She realizes quite a few community members need to have ideal locations in the right of the diagram and proposes location E.

It turns out Eve was correct, and the Condorcet winner of {A, B, C, D} is not the Condorcet winner of {A, B, C, D, E}, which has E as its own Condorcet winner.

So, the method of adding to the choice set can also be used to improve upon a Condorcet winner.

Dealing with a Condorcet Winner, part II ,,fold,,

Adding to the choice set is a good method to get better outcomes, assuming the electorate is small enough to fit in a room. But there is a limit to how good the outcomes can be. After location E had been identified as the best location so far, Frank proposed four more locations to bracket E.

The facts that E is the Condorcet winner of {A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I} and the underlying reasons for any votes is distance pretty much means that any added location proposal to defeat E would need to be fairly close to E.

This limitation on any large improvement over E makes it clear that E is close to the best possible location. Even though it might well be possible to do better, any new locations are not going to be all that much better.

Thus the method of adding to the choice set can have a natural end to it, once voters have evidence showing the limits of possible gains.

Accepting the result ,,fold,,

The final step in the small town meeting process is accepting the result. There is evidence that E is the best proposal so far, and all proposed locations since E were unsuccessful at improving upon it. So the community knows this is its best proposed option.

The remaining question is: is this "best" option actually "good enough"? It is possible that if the range of the tower were something like 10km instead of 25km, the answer would have been no.

But as it was, location E was accepted and the town meeting adjourned.

Implementing Democracy at Scale ,,fold,,

A community meeting as depicted in the Cell Tower story is a mental model of an ideal democracy. Its goal is to find the best outcome for the community as a whole, and it uses the input from every community member, in the form of a vote at every choice point. During the meeting the community takes its time in making its decisions, solicits member input, and works its way toward a consensus outcome.

Working from the assumptions that the described community meeting is a good example of a democracy and that democracy is a good thing, our challenge becomes to see if we can implement its key features at a larger scale. We want to have:

  • a way of introducing proposals, both initially and subsequently,
  • a way of evaluating proposals, to identify the most acceptable ones,
  • a way of deciding whether we want more proposals for evaluation, and
  • a way of determining when we are done.

For the first item, new proposals, we think the best way is some sort of voter petition process. There is a balance point here. We do not want to arbitrarily block any types of proposals, but we also do not want to overwhelm voters with a large number of proposals that have no chance of being accepted. A petition process allows voters to put any proposal on the ballot as long as enough voters want it there.

Clearly, given the name of this site, we think serial approval vote election, described in What Is SAVE?, addresses the remaining three items. SAVE evaluates proposals by asking voters which proposals are better than the current focus proposal, and replaces the focus whenever another proposal is better. When the focus repeats, either due to it being a Condorcet winner or due to a cycle, SAVE allows for new proposals. SAVE determines we are done when the number of voters voting to accept the current focus as the final proposal is both a majority and greater than the number of votes received by any other proposal.

However, there are a number of other voting systems that have been used and that might be adapted to iterate. Iteration of some type is needed in order to allow new proposals if it is determined that none of the existing proposals are good enough. New proposals are necessary if there is to be any chance of selecting a proposal more collectively acceptable than any one of the initial set of proposals.

If we try to iterate with an existing voting system, one way might be to:

  1. Run the existing system with the current proposals
  2. The result of (1) will either identify a single winning proposal, or in the case of Condorcet methods, possibly identify a top cycle prior to using some other method to pick a single winning proposal.
  3. In either case, the next step is to ask voters whether they want to accept the single winning proposal from (2), or to add more proposals.
  4. If the answer to (3) is acceptance we are done. Otherwise, add more proposals and go back to (1).

While grafting iteration to some existing voting system might work, it also is likely to run into issues with Arrow's impossibility theorem or the Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem, both of which apply to attempts to rank 3 or more alternatives.

Arrow's Impossibility Theorem ,,fold,,

Kenneth Arrow became well known among voting theorists and economists after he published work based on his doctoral thesis in the 1950s. The most famous of his results (at least among voting theorists) is now usually referred to as Arrow's impossibility theorem or just AIT. Before I go any further, I want to clearly state that both of Arrow's theorems are correct, in that his conclusions follow from his assumptions. I do, however, find some of his assumptions questionable. In Critique of Arrow's Theorems, we review exactly what Arrow proved, where his assumptions were too restrictive, and point out exactly why AIT does not apply to SAVE.

A very brief summary of why AIT does not apply to SAVE is that SAVE strictly limits voter input to choices between exactly two alternatives. AIT, the impossibility theorem is the second of Arrow's theorems. The first of Arrow's theorems is titled the possibility theorem for two alternatives, and it states it is possible for a society to choose between two alternatives (binary decisions) using simple majority decision.

The other issue with AIT is that it has as one of its requirements that the social order be transitive. The problem with that condition is there are very real circumstances in which societal preferences are not transitive. One example of this is shown in the Cell Tower, in which the first three alternatives form a cycle.

The bottom line, however, is that due to both iteration and organization of voter input into sets of binary choices, AIT does not apply to SAVE.

When considering grafting iteration to other voting systems, it is likely that many of these voting systems will fail under AIT because many of them are based on ranking alternatives, which means voter choices are not limited to binary decisions.

The more restrictive impossibility result is the Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem.

Gibbard-Satterthwaite Theorem ,,fold,,

The main concept in the Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem has to do with how voters actually fill out their ballots. In voting theory this is generally described in terms of honest and strategic ballots, where:

honest
means the voter completes their ballot (provides input) using their actual preferences without considering the possible outcomes, and
strategic
means the voter completes their ballot in such a way that the outcome will be more in line with their actual preferences.

A real-life example of this difference is the US Presidential race in 2000, where Florida voters had more than two choices and neither of the two major party candidates had a clear majority. Since the voting system only allowed voting for a single candidate, voters whose first choice was one of the "third party" candidates could cast an honest ballot for their first choice even when it was clear from polling data that their first choice could not win, or could cast a strategic ballot for the better of the two major party candidates in order to avoid getting a worse outcome.

In Critique of the Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem, we first provide three variations of GST: Gibbards version, Satterthwaite's version, and a reasonably clear summary from Wikipedia. Then we expand on what GST actually means. Finally, we describe why GST is not a problem for SAVE.

Societal Maladaptation to Prior Voting Systems

In democracies, voting systems theoretically provide feedback to our governments by aggregating individual preferences into societal goals. When voting systems are broken, our individual representatives are not getting the feedback they need to serve our collective needs. The current, most widely used voting system in the USA, called plurality voting, is technically a very poor system when trying to aggregate preferences over more than two alternatives.1

The limitations of voting systems can encourage undesirable behavior on the part of individuals and small groups that result in governmental behaviors that do not represent the aggregate will of the people. Here is a partial list of various societal maladaptations encouraged, directly or indirectly, by our current voting system.

Two-Party Systems
Duverger's Law explains why two-party systems develop under particular voting systems. The problems caused by two-party systems result from the limited choices allowed. Some of the maladaptations from a two-party system include:
Gerrymandering
A direct result of two party systems and the resulting major parties is the temptation of one of the two parties in power to distort the voting power of supporters of the opposing party so as to limit opposition.
Political tribalism
When there are only two parties, supporters of one major party tend to identify with that party, and to consider supporters of the other major party to be obstacles. This often works both ways, and makes it difficult for governments to function.
General Problem of Representation
When a given party is in control of a district, the members of the other party have difficulty getting their needs addressed.
Negative Campaigning
In a two-party system, there are effectively only two options. In that situation, candidates for office are playing a game in which their goal is to get just enough votes to win. If they advertise their positions, they can be attacked on those issues. Whereas if they attack their opponents, they may not be able to gain support, but they might be able to reduce the turnout for their opponent.
Issue Suppression
Under some systems, the only input voters have to the process is an occasional vote for a representative. Introduction of new political issues is actively discouraged because it can change the current power structures. Also, the introduction of new issues can take more time than comment on traditional issues because newer issues tend to be more complicated.
Limited Access to Representatives
As all representatives are people, they have limited time and thus limited sources of information about what their constituents want or need. When access to representatives is biased, those representatives cannot be responsive to the true aggregate of their constituents. With limited time, representatives are more subject to:
Lobbying
A lobbyist is likely to both have a coherent message and also be able to be more flexible in their efforts to access a representative. As successful lobbyists are often paid, they are most often associated with moneyed interests, with the result that they are more often supporting the needs and desires of wealthier constituents. The result is: representatives are more likely to know about what the wealthy want as opposed to what the poor want, with the result that the needs of the poor are likely to be under served.
Money in Polics
When politicians do not have frequent contact with a representable sample of their constituents they can get out of touch with the needs of their districts.
Bribery and corruption
These is not limited to any particular voting system, but are symptoms of non-functional governments, and poor voting systems can lead to non-functional governments.

Footnotes:

1

The "two alternatives" qualification is important because a true choice between two alternatives is satisfactorily resolved by majority decision, which only applies to a choice between two alternatives. All voting systems are equivalent to majority decision when there are only two alternatives.

Author: Thomas Edward Cavin

Created: 2026-01-15 Thu 02:24

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